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Sorry Stefan. The IIHF rulebook doesn’t mention standards for helmets. It does say that tinted and mirrored visors aren’t allowed.
So you still have that potential problem.
Yeah, I should have checked with Michael about a timeline.
When he offered to do this I kinda presumed it would take a few weeks. Maybe in lieu of you setting something up for a fortnight or so Aaron, maybe for now we can just post the pdfs and then once Michael has his thing up and running you can add the data to it?
Michael?
If you have them in an excel spreadsheet, Michael might be able to tweak them in excel to make them importable as well.
"guest":2blz3f6x wrote:I think the key word in that clast comment was [b:2blz3f6x][u:2blz3f6x]RECOMMEND[/u:2blz3f6x][/b:2blz3f6x] THIs entire fiasco is utter crap. I do think that if the DIHL does want to enforce this kind of BS, then expect the more tallented players to leave because of this.[/quote:2blz3f6x]We had a fiasco? Hope someone was serving cocktails. I must have missed it while we were discussing the rules.
‘The DIHL’ won’t enforce anything, mostly because it’s a hockey competition not a human being. Rules are enforced by referees on the ice, and they’re under the overall ‘command’ if there’s any such thing, of the head referee.
Players should be aware that we don’t exclusively follow the IIHF rulebook. The DIHA rulebook in several places overrules the IIHF rulebook. I can’t find it on the web site at present (Ryan, there doesn’t seem to be an obvious link to it?). However it reads:
"Rules":2blz3f6x wrote:7 Equipment requirements
7.1 Rules 210, 224, 225, 227, 600, 650 and 651 of the IIHF Rule Book are replaced with
the following.
7.2 All players must properly wear shin guards, elbow pads and gloves designed for the
purpose of playing ice/inline hockey, except for as exempted by rule 7.5, and an
internal mouthpiece, H.E.C.C. approved helmet and at least an H.E.C.C approved
half-visor or half-cage.
7.3 All players under 18 years old must also wear a throat protector and full-face cage
or visor.
7.4 All infractions relating to the wearing of equipment will be penalized under rule 555
of the IIHF Rule Book.
7.5 Leagues playing under ‘Non-Checking No Slap-Shots’ rules shall not require elbow
pads, shin pads, or gloves to be designed for the purpose of playing hockey.
Protective equipment designed for other sports will suffice.
7.6 Teams may either supply their own, or request DIHA uniforms for use for their team.
7.7 The League Committee will provide an alternative uniform in the event of a clash
between team colours.[/quote:2blz3f6x]Ryan’s indicated that he’ll probably put some changes forward to the committee relating to the rules. If anyone wants to make suggestions as to what they should be, send them to Ryan, or take them along yourself. But please don’t complain about referees enforcing the rules set by the association if you haven’t engaged the process, ‘more talented’ or not. They’ll only get changed if someone suggests it and argues for the change.
"rookie#19":cxh3vgqe wrote:Are u fkn kidding me?? Under IIHF rules there is nothing on HECC certification??[/quote:cxh3vgqe]to say the IIHF rulebook is an interesting read is to understate it.
You have to wear a helmet, have skates, and a stick. You have to have “protective equipment”, but it never says what that is. If you could your skates and helmet as protective equipment, then presumably you don’t have to wear shin guards, elbow pads, shorts, gloves, shoulder pads, box etc.
It does say that your protective equipment can’t be showing from under your clothing. However it never specifies what you have to wear apart from helmet, skates, and in some cases, a mouthguard.
This is one area where the Dunedin rulebook (rightly I think) is much stronger. We added in more protective equipment, because I think it’d be irresponsible to run a tournament, particularly in A grade where people are firing slap shots, without some of this gear. I mean, no shin guards? No elbow pads for contact hockey? You’re kidding right IIHF?
Ryan’s right, our rulebook does need a touch of tweaking. I’d suggest that it go to Phil well in advance for his comments though Ryan, and it wouldn’t hurt to put it on here and hear what people have to say as well.
I would presume you’d be wanting to host them on an sql server so that the database outputs on the fly. so it’d have search fields, you could output the stats by player, team, season, goalies, etc etc.
I’d prefer that to making it static and only updated whenever someone pushed the button. 5 times more useful. Would mean that I could look at my stats for the tournament, year, career, etc.
You know, some time soon, people are going to realise that HECC certification isn’t in the IIHF rulebook, and ask why it’s in our rulebook. but it’s been an interesting discussion a’how.
And before anyone says it was me, I didn’t write that part of the rulebook, Ryan did.
They’re registered, they just chose the name guest.
I have a pretty fair idea who it is (curious to see if Ryan thinks it’s the same person), but no point blabbing that, as I can’t imagine they’d confirm it.
Yup.
But surely you’d allow whoever is running the system to enter new tops? I wouldn’t imagine it’d be a fixed table that couldn’t be changed (unlike the penalties one, which would be fixed to the rulebook).
"rookie#19":5wq5lex5 wrote:Well said Kyle, i do not oppose what u r saying at all, I just feel that in dunedin we are getting too wound up on rules which have little significance to the game of hockey.[/quote:5wq5lex5]I’m no expert on helmet safety, and I’m no expert on ice hockey rules. However the HECC are an expert on the first, and the IIHF are an expert on the second. So their rules and guidelines are a good start, and moves away from them should be carefully considered by the DIHA committee.
I think it’s fair to say that if it’s in the rulebook, that it’s there for a reason. The people who write the rules include referees, experts on safety, players, managers, etc. I presume they’re not adding rules to be annoying, they’re doing it to improve the game, ensure it’s safe etc.
"rookie#19":5wq5lex5 wrote:By the way, the HECC cert. visors we have at sk8 are referee visors which hang strangely on the face which i wouldnt want to wear. I have worn lots of different gear over the years, and have tried nearly everything in facial protection, and the visor i am using is my personal favourite. I feel therefore, that i should be able to use it, as it is my choice to risk wearing a more dangerous? visor, just like it was my choice to wear a visor and not a cage, which also increases my chance of getting hit in the face.[/quote:5wq5lex5]I think you have two sets. The referee ones and the more expensive ones in the funny shaped box.
Yeah, I find my grill pretty uncomfortable to wear, though less so when I started playing 5 years ago. That doesn’t mean I go put a motorcycle helmet on (though I’d love to see someone in gear with that on the ice).
I don’t buy the philosophical argument that you’re making above (I’ve heard others make it as well), that it’s a personal choice and people should get to do what they want. The actions of individuals on the ice can impact upon the club. I used to play a lot of casual inline at George St School and we never used to wear any helmets at all. It was a couple of years before we started to enforce that rule, and we were lucky that no one got seriously hurt. We should have made people wear helmets when playing because it’s responsible to do so. If someone got hurt on the rink and wasn’t wearing gear that they should have, that’s not a good look.
Also, if you get your face mashed in and need expensive medical treatment and ACC, you won’t be dipping into your own pocket to pay for it all, so responsibility falls into the wider community somewhat. People wear bike helmets which have to meet standards for the same reasons.
Maybe wearing a non-compliant visor is OK, and not a problem. But the argument shouldn’t be “it’s my choice”. It should be “this equipment is acceptable for these players in these conditions”. We can’t start allowing personal choice into safety rules at a club of several hundred people. Would you let a peewee skate at practise without a grill if they’re Dad said it was OK? Rules, whatever they are, need to be applied across the board. (I personally don’t agree with the “born in 1974 or before” rule, and think everyone should wear a visor, but like I said, the IIHF rulebook is a good starting point based on testing and an incredible amount of experience and input, so you let some of the more unusual stuff slide).
"Michael":2vz95ss4 wrote:This situation is dunedin specific because we share tops, But the teams are not the same!, just because the name is Beasts does not mean that they are the same team , if they were the same team they would have the same people. so creating and reusing the Beasts team would be silly as its not really the beasts team.[/quote:2vz95ss4]Lots of hockey competitions share tops. I played in an inline tournament in Nelson where the womens redbacks team had to literally pull the tops off the smelly guys as they came off the rink. With no groom in inline hockey, they had to be quick too, as it was cutting into their warmup.
Also, we don’t do it here, but lots of hockey clubs have the same tops through all age grades/genders etc. So they might have 6 teams all wearing their club tops, and the teams are differentiated by ages/grades. If you’re planning to create something which others places could use, having tops as a table makes sense to me.
It’s the team name which differentiates the teams on paper, and the tops that differentiates them on the ice.Also, Beasts A and Beasts B could be very similar teams, so being able to create a copy of the team, and then edit it to put in the differences would make sense to me.
Also, you could pull up last years team, and make them this years team, and then pull out and add players who have changed. That would save work on my part, I know. I use filemaker a fair bit, and it has ‘duplicate record’ which I use a lot when half the information in the next record is the same as the record I just did.
My suggestion would also allow you to have a team named one thing, using entirely different tops, but still know what tops they’re using. Phantoms last year played in dark blue Aces tops.
You have to remember that we have to manage tops as well (particularly ensuring that two sets of similar colour don’t end up in the same grade/competition. The only way for the database to know that there are two sets of dark blue tops (Beasts and Aces) and two sets of green tops (Bullfrogs and Stars) is to enter them as the tops, not the colours. Otherwise the database would only list ‘green’ and we’d miss out on the ability to put two sets of the same colour, one in each grade.
"Michael":2vz95ss4 wrote:That would be what color, and alternate_color are for. Having a seperate entry for Jersey means the person entering the team has to enter a jersey first? The team does not belong to the Jersey! The jersey belongs to the team[/quote:2vz95ss4]Actually the jerseys belong to the club. So please put them back when you’ve finished sweating on them.
It would just seem simpler to me if you made a table which included all the tops that there are in Dunedin. Beasts, Sharks, John McGlashan Black etc etc. Then when you add a team you give them a name (eg. Beasts), choose a top, and enter them in the right competition (DIHL B grade). Why would you want to type in ‘dark blue’? We use the same tops every year, lets save ourselves some work by putting them in once. They don’t have to enter it first, all the jersey sets would be set up when you set up the system, and you add to it if you have more tops/teams come into the system.
Dammit, design your system my way!
"guest":3er9o5np wrote:Those tinted visors are safe. If they were not, they would not be sold in stores. THey have the pass through any testing before they can come onto the market.[/quote:3er9o5np]I think that’s precisely the point – they don’t. HECC testing was created by USA hockey in the 1970s when they started to move on making all players wear helmets. It ensures that that the equipment meets certain standards, so that players can buy it and know that it will keep them safe from certain things that can happen in hockey games.
If it’s not certified, then you have no idea how safe it is. Anyone could go make a bit of plastic and sell it as a hockey visor. It might have had in-house testing, and for a major brand it probably has, but you have no guarantees.
I’m no expert on safety equipment. HECC are however, and safety is the factor that led to some things being certified, and others not. If players are happy with wearing that gear, good on them. If DIHA, its leagues, and referees are happy with that gear, that’s also fine.
But it’s a fairly easy conclusion to draw that uncertified gear isn’t as safe as certified gear, and that if you’re choosing between the two, that’s something you should think about. Saying they’re just as safe is flying in the face of evidence, because the certification process is only about testing for safety, so an independent body has clearly said they’re not as safe.
I also agree with Ryan, that at the very least we should be moving towards ensuring that if we have rules, they’re enforced. If the association (it’s the DIHA that sets the rulebook) wants to say ‘any hockey visor’ rather than ‘HECC-certified visor’, then everyone would be fine. If the association however sticks with certified gear, then it should think about ways to move towards having that happen – informing players of a time limit at some time in the future when it will be enforced, talking with suppliers about getting bulk deals, stuff like that. I don’t especially mind which way it goes, personally I’ll choose a certified visor, what Stefan, Ryan, and everyone else wears, is their responsibility, and their consequences.
"guest":2qd1xtkr wrote:Really? a moot point? cause from the way Kyle is sounding, he wants to enforce the rule and my point is that if that does happen, count on a lot of the skilled players to leave games and drop out of the DIHL.[/quote:2qd1xtkr]Yup. Except where I said:
"Kyle":2qd1xtkr wrote:Yeah, I’m not saying that me, or any other referee, is going to kick people off the ice for wearing a non-certified visor.[/quote:2qd1xtkr]Anyway, most of the visors are worn in the A grade. I won’t imagine I’ll be refereeing A grade, as I play in it and I can get plenty of refereeing in the B grade and on Saturdays.
